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Team BlackBerryForums! Fu*k Yeah!

teamamerica_1024I’m glad I don’t take things personally.  I am also a firm believer in the phrase “no good deed goes unpunished”.  I decided to post in both the CrackBerry Forums and BlackBerryForums communities that I’d released the program called Kisses.  It would appear, however, that the fact that I had designed both PhoneSnoop and Kisses seemed to strike a nerve with the members of both forums.  CrackBerry has deleted the post I made.  The thread on the BlackBerryForums, however, is still alive and kicking. If you have some time to waste, head on down there and have a read.

The thread demonstrates some of the ways in which people formulate opinions and it highlighted something very important; to me at least.  Its a trait that I have seen with so many developers of applications as well.  It would appear to me that people are always looking to “play” within a certain set of distinct boundaries.

I’ll give you an example of a web application developer.  In one banking application I tested, I was able to do a “negative transfer”.  It worked like this, if Alice were to transfer -$1000 to Bob, the logic of the application made Bob do a transfer of $1000 to Alice.  So by Alice initiating a negative transfer, she was able to pull money out of Bob’s account.  When confronted with this, the developer simply stated “yes, but a user is not supposed to do this.”  Well of course he’s not supposed to do this, but isn’t it your job as a developer to check for it?  An attacker is not going to play nice; he’s going to find any way he can to own you.  If he can’t hack your systems, he’ll come at you with a knife or a gun.  To him, the end goal is getting what he wants.  He’s not going to stop doing something just because “a user is not supposed to do this”.

If you take the case of what happened in the forums above, it seems very similar.  Here goes:

The forum users and moderators that did reply, seem to be under the impression that just because I released PhoneSnoop, I am trying to infect them by pushing Kisses (in their minds a malicious app) as a cure.  So to me, at least, it appears that their “boundary” or “sandbox” is the fact that I should have released one or the other but not both.  I’ll cover why this is not a very sound way of thinking later, but first, some fun.  Here are some of the things said in the forum post if you didn’t bother reading the whole thing.

  • I was asked if now that I had raised awareness how long I will make PhoneSnoop available for.
  • I was compared to a fox guarding a hen house
  • I was compared to a pharmaceutical company
  • I was wished with “Kisses of death”
  • I was threatened with being sent back to Sri Lanka in a box.
  • I was called a lovely set of names ranging from “super-spy”, “spy-master” and compared with mid-eastern terrorists
  • I asked for donations to help get my hands of copies of FlexiSpy and MobileSpy (mostly because I was writing Kisses for free and was not in a position to pay over $200 for them) and thanks to some members of the phone community out there, I was able to get my hands on copies.  I was questioned as to why I asked for donations and they stated that even free anti-virus product companies don’t ask for donations.
  • One of them thinks my Kim Jong Il avatar (taken from Team America; very apt in this case I must say :D ) on my twitter page makes me look very shady.

So I now am going to dub these wonderful people who are protectors of the BlackBerry community as Team BlackBerryForums.

I have to admit, though, that I respect them very much.  The are very dedicated and I hope that most of what they say comes from some place inside them where they want to protect other users.  For this, yes, I have to bow down and say that I’m impressed.

Right, now onto the reason why this sort of behavior is not very helpful.  First, I really don’t care if users don’t download and use my Kisses application.  I put it up there, because I wanted to give something back to users for free to help them protect themselves.  This was my only intention.

By making it appear to other users that I am evil because I wrote PhoneSnoop and now I’m writing Kisses, Team BlackBerryForums are not being helpful to their users.  Its like in Green Eggs and Ham – a pre-conceived notion before investigating things further. It would have been far more helpful to their users if they had verified things first before seemingly writing off the app as spyware.  To their credit, however, they did ask a lot of questions.  CrackBerry Forums just shut down the thread.  If they had researched what I presented in the Hack In The Box security conference, they would known that there are far more creative ways of infecting BlackBerry users.  I tried to stress this point in my replies, but I guess their minds were already made up.

Lets hypothetically take the situation where I am someone evil and my only job is to spy on BlackBerry users.  I think I would have a far better chance of being stealthy.  I would certainly not highlight the fact that I can bug peoples phones and I surely would not release a proof-of-concept application.  This removes the element of stealth from my plan.  This is how I would do it, again, hypothetically.

I think Team BlackBerryForums believes that by releasing a proof-of-concept tool makes me a terrorist of sorts.  They seem to think that nothing I do from now on can be trusted and is not well-intentioned.  Now I can see how they would think that.  But surely, they should be aware that if I had a serious need to read people’s email or tap their phone calls, I would find a way to do it?  And do it quietly?

Looking at my latest log file, I have 489 distinct downloads of Kisses.  I have had numerous emails from people asking me to support older versions of their BlackBerries and I have had lots of emails thanking me for releasing the free app.  I’m very happy that some people out there perceive the app as useful.  I think that’s enough for me.  So for the sake of those people out there, I will continue to develop Kisses and release it.  A big thanks go out to you guys.

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Discussion

Comments for “Team BlackBerryForums! Fu*k Yeah!”

  • ~cat~
    As I posted at blackberryforums, wow.. just freaking wow.
    I was pretty taken back by the hostility your posting brought out when I first read the forum.
    It was like an immunity response to a foreign invader.. yeah, that's the ticket. <G>
    I think the smartphone community has grown up under the false assumption that they are invulnerable to the garbage that infests the typical users PC.
    Like a teenager moving into adulthood, they are resentful when presented with their mortality.
    Understandable, normal and probably should have been expected. :-/
    Unfortunately this also leaves them more vulnerable until they grow up.
    We've seen rogue programs pushed out by governments recently, what makes anyone think the smaller sharks aren't waiting or already feeding?
    If you don't "get it" you will probably soon have "it" is my theory.
  • ~cat~
    As I posted at blackberryforums, wow.. just freaking wow.
    I was pretty taken back by the hostility your posting brought out when I first read the forum.
    It was like an immunity response to a foreign invader.. yeah, that's the ticket. <G>
    I think the smartphone community has grown up under the false assumption that they are invulnerable to the garbage that infests the typical users PC.
    Like a teenager moving into adulthood, they are resentful when presented with their mortality.
    Understandable, normal and probably should have been expected. :-/
    Unfortunately this also leaves them more vulnerable until they grow up.
    We've seen rogue programs pushed out by governments recently, what makes anyone think the smaller sharks aren't waiting or already feeding?
    If you don't "get it" you will probably soon have "it" is my theory.
  • ~cat~
    As I posted at blackberryforums, wow.. just freaking wow.
    I was pretty taken back by the hostility your posting brought out when I first read the forum.
    It was like an immunity response to a foreign invader.. yeah, that's the ticket. <G>
    I think the smartphone community has grown up under the false assumption that they are invulnerable to the garbage that infests the typical users PC.
    Like a teenager moving into adulthood, they are resentful when presented with their mortality.
    Understandable, normal and probably should have been expected. :-/
    Unfortunately this also leaves them more vulnerable until they grow up.
    We've seen rogue programs pushed out by governments recently, what makes anyone think the smaller sharks aren't waiting or already feeding?
    If you don't "get it" you will probably soon have "it" is my theory.
  • JSanders
    Sheran, I am sorry you choose to paint BlackBerryForums.com in the negative light. That's your perception. Several of us had honest questions, and none of the moderators of that sight treated you unfairly, and actually on the contrary, we have allowed your thread to remain for open discussion. I still have questions about your M.O., but I can see from your blog here that you seem to have a different personality here in your blog from that you portray on BBF.

    And by your cheerleader atchijov's math, 100% of the comments in public forums are either uneducated or self-serving. That's just ignorant and proves he's never even visited at least one of the forums you're indicting.
  • Ch0pstick
    Joey, IMHO, letting the thread remain on the site will help your readers, I have neither asked you to keep it open, nor does it affect me in any way. I don't understand how my personality varies between my blog and BBF. If anyone had bothered to check up a little bit more then this would have become apparent. I stopped participating in the thread when the questions seemed to be asked without much effort being given to research.

    I do not expect everyone to like the stuff I do. Some people won't like it, they'll question my motives, not understand it or some such. People are entitled to their opinions. If they are in positions of authority, then they need to make sure that their questions and arguments are helpful to their followers or for improving a community. If the moderators of BBF posed those questions because they were concerned about the readers' well-being, then I accept that. I acknowledged it in my post.

    Mr. Tchijov raises a valid point. I don't see how it can be dismissed outright. I have seen posts or stories online questioning the motives of Kisses. Some or all of these authors seemed to have an affiliation with antivirus vendors who charge for the same thing that I do for free. I have seen positive comments to these news stories being approved and negative comments being squashed. I am not implying anything, but one of your BBF moderators even admitted to working in or with the AV industry.

    If questions or arguments are raised to promote an affiliate product over another, then its obviously self-serving. Trashing the competition by raising fear or questioning motives is simply one way of doing it. Please read carefully that I am not accusing BBF or its moderators of doing so. I am making a general statement based on what I have experienced.

    Thanks for stopping by and writing in. I wish you all the best. I don't see any reason why this topic should be discussed any further as I would much rather devote this time to improving my applications; besides I'm sure we all know the truth about 'arguing on the internet'.
  • JSanders
    The BBF moderator you mention does not work in the AV industry, it is their passion and avocation, not their vocation and from what I know there is no monetary interest. And I have not idea what you have encountered elsewhere--I can't comment on what I don't know.

    I don't really have any disagreement with what you are doing to develop an anti-virus application. You have my well-wishes on that. However, I don't think you understand the value of forums such as BBF when approached correctly, to benefit your work for a myriad of reasons from user feedback to even gauging public opinion and "expert user" advice.
  • atchijov
    You really should not take all this seriously. In my experience 75% of comments on pretty much ANY public forum done by people who do not understand the subject of the forum, do not want to understand the subject of the forum and completely incapable to understand it. Rest 25% of the posts done by people who trying to push they agenda (which has nothing to do with subject of the forum). Really insightful comments are so rear, they get lost in all this. Sad.
    Bottom line, ignore all these loonies and keep up good work.
    Cheers.
  • Ch0pstick
    Coming from you that means a lot, thank you sir!
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